Joined: Jun 27, 2004 Posts: 38 Location: San Antonio, TX
Posted:
Fri Jul 02, 2004 3:20 pm
Hello all,
First time poster here. I've been reading through some of the posts here, and I thought I would share my religion with you.
I am a Messianic Jew, which basically means that I am a Christian who has accepted Judaism as part of G-d's will for me. He has given us His laws and His son, and both are to be followed.
Up until only a year ago, I followed the doctrine that the Old Testament laws had been 'nailed to the cross', but through a dear friend of mine learned that these laws had been abolished not by Christ, but by the church many years after His death. As He Himself said: "I did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it."
Anyway, I would be glad to discuss this with all of you.
Joined: Aug 27, 2002 Posts: 14928 Location: Kansas
Posted:
Fri Jul 02, 2004 3:23 pm
All of the Jewish law was fulfilled, in Christ. So, to accept Christ as your Savior means that there is no law to fulfill - Christ's finished work on the cross was God's perfect and only sacrifice.
Joined: Jun 27, 2004 Posts: 38 Location: San Antonio, TX
Posted:
Fri Jul 02, 2004 3:33 pm
I don't understand that. To say that Christ, by fulfilling the law, means that there is no more law to fulfill, seems contradictory. Yeshua never said that after He died that the law would no longer apply. In fact, He said Himself that not a tittle or nod of the law would change until the end of heaven and earth.
I don't mean to start an argument, truly; I merely want to share my faith with you as you've shared yours with me.
Joined: Aug 27, 2002 Posts: 14928 Location: Kansas
Posted:
Fri Jul 02, 2004 3:46 pm
Of course! By the law will no man be saved. Rather than I start a discourse, I will let this be the start of the discourse. I will be most interested in your reply.
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Joined: Jun 27, 2004 Posts: 38 Location: San Antonio, TX
Posted:
Fri Jul 02, 2004 3:58 pm
"Here is a great point to remember: Never in any age or dispensation in human history has God saved man by faith alone. God has always required faith and obedience."
This sentiment seems to be exactly my point. I believe that Yeshua died for our sins so that we could enter the kingdom of heaven, and that G-d expects obedience to His laws. G-d does not change, His laws have not changed.
I am not saying that works alone will save man. However, obedience to the Torah and the laws of the Old Testament are a part of being obedient to G-d's word.
G-d does not change, why would His expectations of us have?
Joined: Aug 27, 2002 Posts: 14928 Location: Kansas
Posted:
Fri Jul 02, 2004 4:06 pm
Obedience is for a testimony to those without God's camp, that they might see God through us. Baptism, as an example. It does not save and never has. If works could save then we would not need a Saviour. It is only through the sacrifice of a perfect lamb, God's Son, that redemption is possible. Otherwise we continue to offer imperfect sacrifices for an imperfect man.
That passage simply laid out the discourse as I said. The obedience does not save, nor does it keep one saved. Obedience should be the natural consequence of salvation, not the means.
Now read this and especially note the last line
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. It is obedience to God's plan, accepting Christ as your Saviour, that saves. Not man's work/obedience afterwards.
Joined: Jun 27, 2004 Posts: 38 Location: San Antonio, TX
Posted:
Fri Jul 02, 2004 6:22 pm
Agreed.
"It is obedient faith that saves."
As I have said, works do not save alone. You must have faith in Yeshua and his sacrifice on the cross for you to be truly saved.
However, G-d has given us His commandments, and they are to be followed for us to be obedient to His will. Hence, if you truly have faith, then you will act in accordance with His will. G-d has prescribed a lifestyle for us to follow, with actions and diet according what He wants for and from us. His son's death is another part of that plan.
Joined: Aug 27, 2002 Posts: 14928 Location: Kansas
Posted:
Fri Jul 02, 2004 6:52 pm
We will have to agree to disagree - Salvation is by Faith + nothing. Dietary laws have nothing to do with Salvation, neither do the 10 Commandments. Dietary laws are health related, the 10 commandments are moral and obendience related. Jesus said "I am The Way, The Truth, The Life. No man cometh unto the Father, But By Me". If anything else was needed, then he would have added "and by the Law and by this, and that". He didn't. You are welcome to have the last word
I would like to ask you to PM me your address though. One of the greatest Christian Jews I have ever known was Dr. Hyman Appleman (Hyman Jedidiah Appleman, 1902-1983). He was a dear man that I had the honor to know and spend but a short time with during a revival service in the 1970's. He also ate with us in our home. I have a tape where he recounts his conversion to Christianity. I think you would especially find it endearing and would like to send it to you, if you would allow me to.
Works is the evidence of faith, not the prerequisite of it... we R saved by faith through grace... NOT by faith + anything else. The Bible makes it very clear that man is NOT saved by his works as they R of dirty rags. God does not save us based on our ability 2 adhere 2 the law, but rather by faith in Jesus. He is the only way.
The Law was created so that we may know that we R sinners. The Law cannot save U, it can only point U 2 the 1 who does... that is Jesus, who frees us from our sins.
:: edited ::
You might do well to also do a search on 'Jews 4 Jesus'. They R a Christian organization that specifically tries 2 reach out Jews. While I'm not assuming that U R a Jew, I am saying however that they or their WebSite (I'm sure they have 1) could prob answer many of your Q's about how the entire Old Testament points to Jesus, and how Jesus saves us from the Law which condemns man 2 his own sins... the simple answer, the Law was created 2 show us we need Him.
Last edited by TheShniz on Sat Jul 03, 2004 11:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: Jun 27, 2004 Posts: 38 Location: San Antonio, TX
Posted:
Sun Jul 04, 2004 10:31 am
I can't help but feel like you guys are not reading what I am saying. The word 'Jew' popped up, so now you are making assumptions and not really reading what I am posting. Either that, or I am terrible at explaining my faith, and need to stop before I get myself or others confused.
I do believe that we are saved by grace alone. I believe that we are saved by faith in Yeshua alone. (Maybe that's the problem: Yeshua = Jesus Hebrew name.)
However, G-d's expectation that we continue to adhere to the laws of the Old Testament has not changed. He expects us to follow His commandments and laws. G-d does not change, so why would His expectations of us do so?
You're telling me that since Yeshua died for our sins, God's only requirement is faith in Yeshua. However, I think that even you would concede that one would not be truly saved unless he also changed the way he lived. You cannot accept Yeshua as the Son of G-d and yet continue to steal and fornicate. You do have to change your life. As Yeshua Himself said, there will be many who cry out his name who will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Becoming a Christian or a Jew requires a change in lifestyle as well, not just a simple change in belief.
All I am saying is that part of G-d's expectations of us is to follow His laws, old and new. I feel like the Church of today is wrongly pulling away from that without any real evidence that that was G-d's plan.
I will read the website you have posted, but I would also ask that you read some of the things I am going to link here:
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Feel free to read these all, but I think that the April/May lesson is the most pertinent to this conversation. Also, check out the quoted verse in the beginning of the June lesson.
Joined: Aug 27, 2002 Posts: 14928 Location: Kansas
Posted:
Sun Jul 04, 2004 10:58 am
I will speak for me in this response. I have read every word you have written. You keep saying it is grace alone. Actually it is "saved by Grace, through FAITH, and that not of yourselves. It is the Gift of God, not by works, lest any man should boast", semantics maybe . Faith alone means just that. Yes, one would expect there to be an outward change of a changed inward heart. But nowhere in the New Testament will you find Jesus or any of His Apostles stating "now keep the 10 commandments and the dietary laws". That's because you would be adding to Faith, at that point. Plus, we would be trying to out-do each other to be 'better'. What about the thief on the cross that was saved while on the cross? What about death-bed conversions? Where was their "proof" of a changed life? That is why you cannot add to Faith. A saved person who sins needs to ask for forgiveness, in prayer, to restore Fellowship with God, but not his eternal standing with God. That was settled once and for all when he accepted Christ as his Savior.
Bottom line is this. Once you are saved, you are saved by the shed Blood of Christ. Repentance means a turning away from AND a turning towards something. In this case, God, and Christ by inference. But, as it is written, "the heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked. Who can know it?". Also, "Man looketh on the outward appearance, God looketh upon the heart". Again "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.". Only God knows the true state of any man's heart. We are not meant to be the judge, nor could we look on each other with a pure heart ourselves.
Joined: Jun 27, 2004 Posts: 38 Location: San Antonio, TX
Posted:
Sun Jul 04, 2004 11:05 am
Quote:
But nowhere in the New Testament will you find Jesus or any of His Apostles stating "now keep the 10 commandments and the dietary laws".
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Matt 5:17-19
I guess this is where we differ, because this is an example of a passage where I see Yeshua telling us that the law has not and will not change, and is to be followed.
Perhaps, as you said before, we will have to agree to disagree.
BTW, I went to the Jews for Jesus site, but have a hard time finding what their message ultimately is. Do they proclaim that Yeshua's death and resurrection herald the end of the OT law? I didn't see anything that said that; they seemed to have a reverence for the Torah as far as I could tell. I admit that there seems to possibly be quite a bit that I would have to go through to get their whole message, but is there anything that states it clearly that I missed?
EDIT: BTW, for all my American brethren, happy 4th of July!
Joined: Aug 27, 2002 Posts: 14928 Location: Kansas
Posted:
Sun Jul 04, 2004 11:40 am
Accepting your passage as why you have been stating what you have, do you notice that Jesus was commenting that both the least and the greatest were BOTH in Heaven? Even though they have not been outwardly obedient to the same degree, they are BOTH still in Heaven. Praise God! That's very important because it clearly states that they are still saved WITHOUT works.
"But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth His Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. Galatians 4:4,5."
"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Romans 8:3,4."
I believe Jesus was simply stating that He came to fulfill the law where man could not. He came as proof of the One that the law and the prophets had spoken of. He was stating that there is still more prophesy to be fulfilled (Second coming, anti-christ, Armageddon, etc.). I am not, in any way, implying that you or any person is not saved if you feel you need to live a particular way. Obviously, by living according to those things you will be healthier. But let me ask you, if your child fell into a revine on the Sabbath, would you get him out? Do you ever travel more than a mile (approx) on the Sabbath? My dear friend, there is no way that you can keep the Law, that's why we needed God's Perfect Sacrifice. We now need to go forth and tell the wonderful story of A Sinner Saved By Grace! We should have a changed life and "they (the world) should know us by our fruits".
Lastly, in closing, from the first epistle of John we read
Quote:
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
See, God knows we will sin after we're saved. It is an inevitable consequence of Adam and Eve. When a saved one sins, he breaks fellowship with God but can quickly restore it, by asking for forgiveness. Enjoy the walk of a believer without shackles. Serving God and obeying Christ out of a changed heart, not a prescribed list.
Joined: Jun 27, 2004 Posts: 38 Location: San Antonio, TX
Posted:
Sun Jul 04, 2004 11:48 am
I agree that Yeshua came to fulfill the law because we as men cannot. We are sinful, and that's why we needed G-d's Son to save us.
I suppose that we could go around and around and around with this until Yeshua returned to claim His throne on Earth, but what would it matter? We both believe that He is the Son of God and died for our sins. We are brothers in The Christ, and that is the ultimate truth.
Joined: Jun 27, 2004 Posts: 38 Location: San Antonio, TX
Posted:
Sun Jul 04, 2004 12:04 pm
BTW, Raven, it hasn't taken me long to like you. It's not often you find people who are willing to advertise their faith the way you have. I think it's wonderful, and really applaud you for it.
Joined: Aug 27, 2002 Posts: 14928 Location: Kansas
Posted:
Sun Jul 04, 2004 12:04 pm
JediStryker wrote:
I agree that Yeshua came to fulfill the law because we as men cannot. We are sinful, and that's why we needed G-d's Son to save us.
I suppose that we could go around and around and around with this until Yeshua returned to claim His throne on Earth, but what would it matter? We both believe that He is the Son of God and died for our sins. We are brothers in The Christ, and that is the ultimate truth.
Joined: Aug 27, 2002 Posts: 14928 Location: Kansas
Posted:
Sun Jul 04, 2004 12:06 pm
JediStryker wrote:
BTW, Raven, it hasn't taken me long to like you. It's not often you find people who are willing to advertise their faith the way you have. I think it's wonderful, and really applaud you for it.
And I, you! I was just composing a similar message to you.
I'm sorry, I haven't been able 2 keep up during this busy day here... but I have a reference 4 U:
Galations 3:23-25
[23] But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
[24] Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
[25] But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
The NIV says it a lil differently, saying that we are no longer under supervision of the law
BTW, Raven, it hasn't taken me long to like you. It's not often you find people who are willing to advertise their faith the way you have. I think it's wonderful, and really applaud you for it.
Wow, great discourse. Hope you don't mind if I join in.
First off I would like to say that all of us that have any form of "christianity" have inherited lies from our forefathers. Not intentional, now maybe but definately intentional in the beginning. Please consider looking to the site
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, go ahead and order his free video. Our site is
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not as many articles there but we are working on it.
OK, I would like to bring some scriptures to the table for all to consider.
Quote:
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
(1 Peter 3:21 KJV)
It seems baptism saves us?
Quote:
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
(Matthew 10:22 KJV)
It seems that enduring to the end saves us?
Quote:
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
(Matthew 19:23-25 KJV)
It seems obey the commandments and selling all your posessions saves us? The disciples seemed to think the things that were just discussed had something to do with salvation. ie. (Matthew 19:17-22)
Quote:
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
(Matthew 24:13 KJV)
There it is again, enduring until the end?
Quote:
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.
(Mark 8:35 KJV)
Loose your life for his sake and the gospel's sake to savet it?
Quote:
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be d***ed.
(Mark 16:16 KJV)
