To fork or not to fork - that is the question

Worker Joined: Feb 16, 2004 Posts: 164

Hey chatserv, what level of participation are you planning to have? I think everyone appreciates your work on the security side and it is definately good to see you on the team, but you've not said much.

Can I hear what you have to say on all this? At the end of the day this is all about commitment, if we are not all committed to this all the way through then it will fail.

Obviously the hard work will fall to the php guru's my question is who can Raven rely on in this area? If you are good with php and want to participate stand up and be counted.

Richard

New Member Joined: Mar 08, 2004 Posts: 9

Quote:

Yes, the history helps. But again, what is the difference between what Bob is doing on NSN-Nuke versus NukeScripts? Is NSN-Nuke from scratch type of approach and Bob is helping out? If so then why is Bob spending time/energy on Nukescripts?

NukeScripts is an add-on site which develops add-ons for both PHP-Nuke & NSN-Nuke. NSN-Nuke is a cms/portal in it's own right, and it's not just worked on by Bob

Quote:

AI you can stop with the NSN sales pitch allready, everypost you make your tend to mention NSN. Can we please stick to the orignial topic

What's with the attitude? I've done nothing to annoy you, I've not even heard of you before that post just now. If I mention NSN-Nuke it's because I work on it and yes, I Would like to see more people use it than currently do. However, no post by me is meant as a sales pitch.

I work on NSN-Nuke because I like programming and this gives me a large project to work on. I'm not doing it to get money. Hell. I don't see a penny (cent to u yanks Wink

) from any money this project actually manages to raise from advertising & donations etc. (though we haven't actually got banner ads on our site yet) so there's no monetary incentive there.

OK, so I mention NSN-Nuke a lot. So what? I believe it's a good project with a lot of good ideas / features built around an ever-solidifying core. Do I really care whether individual people choose to use it or some other PHP-Nuke fork? Not really. Would I like to see more people use it? I believe I've already answered.

I'll say no more on this subject as there are obviously people outside NukeCops who react to anybody outside the PHP-Nuke community with out-right hostility. I can quite honestly say that personally, I'd be ashamed to be FB and have so many people in a community based around PHP-Nuke act so hostily towards "outsiders" as it were.

Regards
AI

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2004 3:50 am

Thats the problem - your project - his project - their project - our project. I want this project to be above pride - in that it becomes prideful and secretive and then you guys build an ivory tower around yourselves. At the slightest critism you ignore us.......the users.........the people you should be talking to.

Please lets not go down that way - anger - bitterness - resentful.

This project needs to be run so we can all feel that it is our project - not just the Ravens or AI's or Bobs project or any other PHP wiz u want to mention......I want to feel this is my project too......and the only way that can happen is if we can all participate and not be ignored.

There must be a site for the semi-pros and the wannabes and the n00bs, where contributions are accepted and welcomed.......YOU MUST ASK US......for our input - our opinions, tell us what is needed manage us - we need to feel valued, wanted..........YOU THE PHP MASTERS......must nurture us for we are but children of PHP.......if you wish to build an empire to obliterate the multinational money grabbing dictators of the net then it is your followers - your users that will dictate the outcome............ignore us at your peril.

SO i beg of you visit us on our lowly wannabe affiliate websites post warm fuzzy words of encouragement and praise where it is due - you will be the winners - with legions of followers. Mr. Green

AI - you said you would like more people to use NSN-Nuke, - well perhaps this is the area you are failing in?

IT IS NOT ENOUGH TO BE JUST PROGRAMMERS - YOU MUST BE LEADERS

I dont remember the last time i saw FB post in a forum accessable to non-paying users.

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2004 5:04 am

Hey AI - i didnt know you were a Brit ........me too! Where abouts are you from - what region?

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2004 6:25 am

Brum, but I think this is off topic again Wink

AI

Site Admin/Owner Joined: Aug 27, 2002 Posts: 17088

Okay everyone - let's stay on track here Wink

There is passion in this and that is good! Bob Marion is a friend, as is AI, Chatserv, Six, and everyone else here. AI, I don't mind you being proud of NSN and if you refer to a previous post, I asked you to tell me about it so feel free to do so. I don't feel threatened by anyone else's project because the community is large and diverse and there are many niches to fill. There are other sites that want to be numero uno and be the only 'official' this or that but that is not my goal here. I want people here simply because they realize that this just a PART of the community that meets certain needs. Just for a brief more history, I, AI, Six, Chatserv, and others that I don't even know about, have battle scars. None want to go down that path again if avoidance is possible. I ask for civility here; passions welcomed and desired; opinions needed; but above all else - please - let's avoid confrontation. Keep the passion going - this is great stuff and it is giving me just what I need. And, Baloo is right on as far as the name. But just for future reference, I have no intention of using Raven in the name and probably not even nuke Smile

- I have been thinking about fishbone lately though. Hmmm Laughing

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2004 9:25 am

Thought i'd add two more cents to see if we can complete the dollar Razz

Raven has nailed down something no one even mentions or is aware of, many of us are tired of the flame wars and will not even pay any attention to any that may be started anymore. I for one have taken a lot of blows and have seen friendships shattered if not by choice but as the result of ongoing wars, no more my friends, i have enough to deal with in my personal life to come online and add to the burdens, no thanks, i'll pass on that Wink

As side notes but equally important if not more, Raven is a close friend of mine and that friendship stands even while we often walk different paths mainly because we can head on any direction we chose without forgetting who we left behind, nothing i do online will change my view on the people i know and care for and if i have not made this point clear enough by now here goes again, i have no problem whatsoever with anyone in the community or outside of it, if anyone has a problem with me or dislikes me it's their prerogative and they do so because they want to and not because i worked on earning it. Regarding commitment i believe i will never get recognized for what i have done and what i continue to do and that's perfectly OK too, i enjoy what i do and if any of my lame stuff helps out just one person then i have been successful.

New Member Joined: Mar 09, 2004 Posts: 14

i noticed PHP-Nuke 6.8 Enhanced was mentioned early in the thread, and just wanted to mention that i was the project creator, and yes, it did lose cohesion due to lack of leadership from myself and lack of a team to work on the site/project

i think it's very important to have a more solid CMS, and while 6.8 enhanced filled the gap for my own needs, it is time for a better solution

it seems to me that what Raven has described is a project VERY similar to NSN-Nuke, and i would love to see him join AI and Bob (and company) under the NSN-Nuke banner... it's a great CMS, and next to Xoops2, is my current preferred CMS, especially with the ease-of-portability of modules from PHP-Nuke

i'm not too eager to see another PHP-Nuke fork, since there *are* many that are floating around, and not enough with a solid community. i personally see NSN-Nuke with the most potential, and while AI is a great programmer, i too think he doesn't quite have the front-man leadership skills needed to make it a widespread project. no offense intended towards AI, but NSN-Nuke would take off further if the atmosphere were a bit more amiable, which has always been the case wherever Raven, Chatserv, and a few others like them happen to be

anyways, i vote for NSN-Nuke. Raven, you have a good idea, but why not discuss the possibilities of uniting with the NSN-Nuke dev team, and work from there? like AI said, it's very solid, has many good features in the oven, and is also much more secure already than PHP-Nuke has ever been (with the exception of a PHP-Nuke that chatserv has modified, lol)

that's just MY two cents/pennies/whatever, no offense intended towards anyone, and no intentions of starting a flame war

EDIT: btw, i didn't read the WHOLE thread, since it's fairly lengthy (long posts) and at 4 pages, i got into it too late (at work right now too, no time), so if i mentioned something that has already been rejected, then please just ignore me, but otherwise, please consider what i suggest

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2004 10:19 am

When i first started nuking and made my first edit to a source file i thought:
"Hey, what's gonna happen when i upgrade, i'm gonna lose my changes, that sucks!"
If and when we fork, i'd like to see some thought go into resolving that issue.

I can tell you that in my native programming environment (Informix/FourGen),
that is resolved.

This is a very brief description of how that is done:

All source has "block tags" throughout the code (the characters #_)
So this block of code from the Add function in Downloads/index.php:

Code:




function Add(...)


...


// Check if URL exist


    if ($url=="") {


    include("header.php");


    menu(1);


    echo "<br>";


    OpenTable();


    echo "<center><b>"._DOWNLOADNOURL."</b><br><br>"


        .""._GOBACK."";


    CloseTable();


    include("footer.php");


    }


...


}

would look something like this:

Code:




function Add(...)


    ...


    #_url_check - Check if URL exist


    if ($url=="") {


        #_url_check_header


        include("header.php");


        menu(1);


        echo "<br>";


        #_url_check_open_table


        OpenTable();


        #_url_check_no_url


        echo "<center><b>"._DOWNLOADNOURL."</b><br><br>"


            .""._GOBACK."";


        #_url_check_close_table


        CloseTable();


        #_url_check_footer


        include("footer.php");


    }


    ...


}

then changes are merge in from external files via a preprocessor in a format like:

after block Add url_check_no_url
echo "Please try Again<br>";

(the processor would read that as put the following code after the end of the #_url_check_no_url block tag in the Add() function)

the resulting code would be:

Code:




function Add(...)


    ...


    #_url_check - Check if URL exist


    if ($url=="") {


        #_url_check_header


        include("header.php");


        menu(1);


        echo "<br>";


        #_url_check_open_table


        OpenTable();


        #_url_check_no_url


        echo "<center><b>"._DOWNLOADNOURL."</b><br><br>"


            .""._GOBACK."";


        echo "Please Try Again";


        #_url_check_close_table


        CloseTable();


        #_url_check_footer


        include("footer.php");


    }


    ...


}

well, that's 2 more cents for the kitty.

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2004 10:32 am

what happens if the code was hacked (i.e.- a modification by a n00b programmer) by an unskilled individual that didn't use block comments, and then a merge is attempted?

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2004 10:50 am

if you're hacked, you're hacked, i don't think that applies to this.

the site owner/admin/webmaster runs a preprocessor/merge command/utility that merges his/her changes into the source code as demonstrated above.

the beauty is upgrading would just require re-running the merge utility.
the tedious part is adding all the block tags to the base code.
the hard part is writing the merge utility.

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2004 11:03 am

Chatserv, I Know we may have had the odd difference, but I wasn't refering to you when i talked about hostility to outsiders.

As for recognition of your work, ANYBODY who knows you and has seen what you do on NC knows it's you who's doing the majority of the wokr over there now, despite anything FB or ZX or anybody else in any community might say.

AI

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2004 11:07 am

scott, i edited my post a bit ago, i meant a hack as in a poorly-coded modification

sorry for the mis-clarification

edit: hehehe, i love how we have so many sub-conversations running Laughing

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2004 11:11 am

Howdy intel - nice to see ya here - Welcome - Sorry i know - off topic

Hey AI - im from Brum too - South Birmingham (Solihull) - if ya ever want to go for a few beers send me an email!

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2004 11:12 am

To fork, or not to fork - that is the question...

In my humble opinion, yes, it is time for a new fork built upon a solid foundation with security and ease of upgrade as one of the key criteria.

I'm going to keep this as short as possible because the thread is already lengthy but, my reasons for saying a fork is needed are quite simple - I am sick and tired of having to band-aid scripts everytime I upgrade, this is made more painful when several successive versions have the same darn bugs and security holes.

I don't want to keep having to edit files everytime I want to acheive something 'extra' with my site, I don't want to keep having to edit files for security and bug fixes or any other 'hacks'.
I want something that is stable from the start, runs efficiently and has as few security holes as possible.

My vision of a new fork - well, without using any fancy terminology or descriptive methodolgy;

I want it stable and as secure as possible.
I would want to see most of the Admin functions found within the core phpNuke code, including Groups and the abilty to add unlimited access rights of modules/blocks to multiple groups (I have covered this elsewhere I think) and some for of commerce ability, whether that is used for subsriptions, reselling software etc is immaterial - many websites exist where e-commerce forms atleast some part of its functionality.

Closer integration of the phpBB forums so users can see their Rank, Group, Points etc - as well as their avatar Wink

I want the design and layout flexibility of e107 - accomplished in a similar manner to e107.

I want upgradeability and modifications completed in a way similar to YaBBSE - a seperate script that will modify the files (local files), track the changes and offer a 'roll-back' facility (no CVS as your average noob is going to flounder with that).

I better leave it there!

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2004 11:23 am

No AI, i did not aim my post at you or anyone else, i am talking about the community in general, like i said i have no problems with anyone and i hold no grudges against a single person. I've done work at NC but so have others some of which have posted in this thread, i claim no credit for anything, only my fixes, lame hacks and my work on the sites i run/manage, the rest i do because like i said i enjoy what i do and God allowing much more is coming from where the previous projects came from, currently i am devoting most of my time to coding and loving every minute of it. I also contribute work to other projects for the asking time allowing, i just don't add my name to them, no need.

if($php) (
chatserv = " Very Happy

";
} else {
chatserv = " Sad

";
}

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2004 11:25 am

hi rikk03, i know i've seen you around, where? anyways, howdy! lol

guardian, e107? is that another cms or the like?

if people want to see a CMS with tightly integrated userinfo/comments/forums, look at the Xoops model. same for Ease of Use, since all you haveta do to install xoops and any modules is just upload the files, no editing required, no sql insertions/editing required, etc... admin panel fully controls install/uninstall of modules, which is nice, so that if you don't want your admin cluttered up by unneeded modules, you just uninstall it

it controls all sql add/removes, and is a very nice modular system whereby many functions can be added to 3rd party modules to make everything still seem very tightly integrated

the code is clean, and everything is above par if you compare it to a system such as PHP-Nuke

as i mentioned before, i like nsnnuke and xoops, and nsnnuke has many similarities with xoops2 now, which is excellent to see. if someone did go forward with a fork, with guardian's request for modularity, then please look towards Xoops2 for an idea of how they implemented their own well-built system (groups, too! and an excellent template system)

but really, is all this a fork from phpnuke 6.9, or in reality a from-scratch cms? with the requests that i'm seeing and references to rebuilding the core, etc, it's pretty much more than a simple fork away from the current build (xoops was originally a fork too, i believe, but evolved into it's own animal with xoops2)

aaaanyways, i'm harping on something you guys likely might not wanna hear about, lol, but just pointing out it's a good example of implementation if you go ahead with this fork

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2004 11:30 am

Intel - NukeBBmods thats where!

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2004 11:33 am

intel352,
if a noob programmer makes a booboo directly in the code or in these merged/extension files,
it's the same thing only different.

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2004 11:33 am

rikk, thought so, but i searched on your name using the sh*tty admin user-search function, didn't turn ya up

lol, ah well, shows how good PHP-Nuke is.. or maybe was operator fault.. i'm not telling!!!

hehe, sry m8 Embarassed

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2004 11:36 am

Yes e107 is yet another portal system (google search will find it for you). Whilst it is still in its infancy I have it installed on one on my sites for testing.

I like the sound of Xoops2 so I'll check that out - really like the sound of installing/un-installing thorugh through an admin panel with no need to edit files, especially the DB!

My main reason I am stuck with phpNuke, is probably the same for a lot of others - I do not want to lose any data when transferring to another platform so this is something else that the new fork would have to consider.

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2004 11:41 am

scott- thought so, just checking Smile

guardian, think i've heard of it before, i'll check it out later

as for chging platforms, NSN-Nuke has an upgrade/import script which is easy to use, but good luck doing the same with Xoops2 Sad

btw, check out the Xoops code, it's very nice, OO-style code, which is still not within my grasp, but works well, lol (thus the name XOOPS... url = http://www.xoops.org)

they have alot of documentation and active forums/dev interaction/support, and really love the community, it's nice to see it grow the way it is

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2004 12:38 pm

Mambo, e107, xoops - Good stuff and I have been following e107 and Mambo for a while (e107 since it started just about). Xoops I gave up on months ago because it was floundering and support was not answering questions and it looked like it was dying. It sounds like it has bounced back.

I love this discussion. It's the ideas, thoughts, opinions, all of it that makes it so valuable. As I said early on, I don't know if you would call it a fork or a work of its own. Well, actually I do have an opinion (not necessarily a direction) on that. To try to be all things to all people is totally impossible. To just shore up nuke with security patches is why Chat lives and breathes Laughing

. He can't wait for the next release because it means he gets to fix things again. He has a guaranteed job - to bad there's no income. Personally, FB should pay him to shore it up and he'd be much better off. Anyway, I digress Smile

. My opinion? In reality to attain my vision, it has to be all new code, or most of it. Can it ever be backwardly compatible? Possible but it will be hard.

Will I join with someone else already forking? Probably not. Reason? Do I think my way is better? Of course I do or I wouldn't even be entertaining this Laughing

I have to say that the fact that Chris K. sees and desires much the same as I is very encouraging. It's silent confirmation/validation of the approach. Look at the talent pool that has already expressed interest! This could/would be a dynamite project and product. But, I as well as others, are still counting the cost. Stay tuned ... And keep the chatter flowing!

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2004 12:55 pm

xoops really livened up with the release of xoops2, and even moreso recently, imho (xoops1 appeared to be a dieing breed, wasn't that attractive, but 2 was a NICE improvement)

anyways, all i ask is that you provide a TON of documentation, ehehe, that's one thing nsn-nuke is short on, and good docs always help, especially anything that lists all the built-in functions that are recommended for devs to use to save time/effort/code space, etc etc

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2004 2:53 pm

On the Topic of feature requests.
Totally New News script including by default.

News sorted by catagory, programable by catagory, start time and duration. Maybe even author.

Secured well enough no one need fear allowing anonymous posting if they desire. Filtering or tags should be stronger then for admin and user, definetly the word filter should parse anonymous.This has been an ongoing weak spot for nuke.

Now that almost all servers have been updated to GD2 I think image uploading
should be optionally included with a custom a href, hspace and vspace options.
Of course a admin interface for the word filter (Might as well use the phpbb table as it sounds like its here to stay). Permissions grantable on admin, user, and anonymous at least for image uploading and what tag array can be used.

Right now all of this could nearly be done in phpnuke but it would be the epitome
of cobbled and hacked everyone’s tired of. There is no reason all this shouldn’t
already exist. It does even in some of the simplest of blog scripts.