Theming for the future

Involved Joined: Sep 15, 2008 Posts: 352

I would like to finally see the $bgcolor $textcolor variables in all themes and modules disappear. Phpnuke used this method which to me should be a div class or span so the tables blocks and text can be manipulated through the styes.css file.

Just my 2 cents.

Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 5:51 pm

I would like to see more old nuke themes replaced by new css based themes.
Also there are some more things witch could be manipulated through different css.files.
I ´m quite sure there will a lot of changes and improvements in RavenNuke 2.4.0. Wink

Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 6:10 pm

This is one thing on my list. Let's see what everyone else thinks.

Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 6:13 pm

It would make for a more dynamic website. The theme system truly needs a make over. One drawback to nuke is the "standard" themes are all basically the same theme with different cellpics.

Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 6:16 pm

Using Css will improve everything look wise. Should I say Web 2.0

Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 7:05 pm

I have been on this boat (or bandwagon) for a long time. One question that we need to address upfront is "what do we do about compatibility with older themes?". Because as soon as you release a new RN with a new themes architecture you are going to get the inevitable: "what do I do with my fiblackandblueandyellow theme".

Do we make the new RN compatible or not? Do we publish a themes architecture document on our new Wiki, assuming we have one operational by then? Is there a conversion path from the hundreds if not thousands of themes people currently use?

Going with something completely new would give us considerable latitude in design discussions for 2.4. But if we are going to break compatibility we should just announce it up front and maintain it to the end.

Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 7:32 pm

First consideration should be HTML and CSS compliant themes. That would eliminate most all older themes. One CSS with different image packs could look like most any of the old themes do. I would say just switch to a new theme system and not worry about the old themes since most will not work with RN 2.30 without modifications now.

Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 7:33 pm

A themes architecture document or a Wiki page just for theme conversion would be the best bet I think. We would need to go through every module first and change the bgcolor and textcolor variables to div classes in all the tables.

The conversion steps will be straight forward so it's nothing to technical for the novice user. Table less designs should also be thrown on the table.

Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 10:26 am

Not too sure how hard it would be, but I'd love to see the template system used in smf-Nuke used in RN. I checked it out but Im not sure if the theming system works 100% without installing smf, but the system does run without smf, so Im sure someone could do it.

registered · Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 8:18 pm

Well I only looked into SMF-Nuke briefly a while back, but I saw it was massively tied to the SMF code. I would seriously doubt that the theme code would work standalone. Smile

Site Admin/Owner Joined: Aug 27, 2002 Posts: 17088

Back at the end of 2007 and the first of 2008, Shawn McKenzie and I stated exploring the integration of his AutoTheme Lite with RavenNuke(tm). We suspended the discussion at the time because we hadn't formulated a definite theme structure, which we still haven't, but this needs to be considered. Btw, Mars is a very strong proponent of this option Wink

Also, papamike has written a theme builder exclusively for RavenNuke(tm). We need to look at that. He is a very strong supporter of RavenNuke(tm) and only writes themes for and supports only RavenNuke(tm) RavensScripts

Theme Guru Joined: Jan 11, 2006 Posts: 170

CSS Tableless themes aren't the way to go, not with the ongoing "browser wars." Why change something that works? I design Tableless web sites XHTML 1.1 Strict but there's no reasoning for it. I just like the challenge of it.

I would prefer to see any changes to the way themes are designed now as a seperate issue from any releases of RavenNuke (TM). You're gonna run a lot of RN users away by making big drastic changes. If everyone wants to change the way themes are made then do it gradual and start from the basement and work upward releasing each new change as new versions of "RavenNuke (TM) Themeing System."

I don't really care how many Moderators, admins, etc.. there are here, and there are alot, the users are the ones that are going to be affected. I install RN for quite a few people and I'm not wanting to go back and try to explain why the theme they have used forever doesn't work when they updated their version of RN.

Raven spoke of my theming system. I am not releasing it right now for download because I'm working on a new version. But still it isn't anything that I made to replace the current system.

Why not give the Your Account area a facelift it desperately needs one and the admin area too?

Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 7:48 am

papamike, I'm not sure I agree with you regarding tableless themes. Most modern browsers support CSS, IE has a few quirks, but there are ways to get around it. Separating content from style has good to be a good thing, hasn't it? Tables just produce massive amounts of code that are difficult to understand.

I think I have said this before, but personally I would like to be able to take any HTML template, add a few tags like {header}, or {content} upload it to Nuke and then the system knows exactly what should go where. Simple. OK I have made it sound extremely simple, but the principle is there and some CMS's already use systems like these.

JMO

Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 9:40 am

Regarding papamike: I misunderstood. I thought you had developed a theme system but if I now understand correctly it's a theme builder/editor based on the current wat the themes are implemented, correct?

Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 10:00 am

For the record concerning the direction of theme construction in RavenNuke(tm), we intend on revamping/reorganizing/redesigning/re?? (whatever re term you might want to use). CSS is the way we are going. Tables are fine when used for what they were intended - tabular data. So expect changes in theme structure and composition.

Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 11:56 am

papamike: I agree with you about the browsers wars, but there's always an approach to make a design look good regardless of what browser your using. It can be a headache.

I use Firefox Firebug for quick design then I move on Chrome, Safari, NS, Opera.. Normally if it looks good in Opera your on the right track. Everyone knows never design using IE.

On another note:

I agree css all the way or another idea is to use "Smarty" and restructure the whole themes system.

Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 12:09 pm

Someone said Smarty Smile

I think Smarty is probably overkill but then again, I use a module that incorporates the whole Smarty templating and plug-in architecture - and that's just for one module.

Something similar in it's approach (tag replacement) which jakec mentioned would probably be easier for themers to get to grips with so you could potentially do something like

Code:




{header class}


 {header}


   {menu div}


     {menu}

Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 12:44 pm

I knew mentioning Smarty would raise some eyebrows.. I agree it's pretty much overkill but I like it. Very Happy

Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 3:32 pm

Raven wrote:

Regarding papamike: I misunderstood. I thought you had developed a theme system but if I now understand correctly it's a theme builder/editor based on the current wat the themes are implemented, correct?

My theming utility gives the user a method of building a theme without knowing HTML or CSS. I have it all coded in the utility where I use preassigned variables. All anyone has to do is open the config files and change the variables attributes (or tweak settings). I can build a theme in about 20 minutes but feedback from users tells me that it is to complex for most and they simply walk away from it. And the version I am working on now is even more complex. The only way I can simplify things is to build a template system, similiar to what phpbb2 has in the admin.

To answer your question more specifically, no I did not design something that is based on the way themes are designed now. My utility is designed to be a standalone application. I think that I just need a better tutorial to go along with the package.

Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 3:33 pm

These are my opinions and I'm not debating them Wink

. We all have our opinions and I respect yours but you have to respect mine also Smile

.

I have spent a good deal of time this last week while I was bed-ridden studying - Smarty. Smarty (PHP Template Programming and Applications) PACKT Publishing.

I have read it several times in the past, or at least parts of it. I read it twice this week. I am firm in my decision that it really has no use nor benefit for projects that don't have a clean separation between program/code and design and even then I question the necessity unless the project is very large and the designers don't know how to code. PHP is itself a templating language - an age old "argument". But what really drove it home are the following:

Smarty is a language all of its own - a subset of PHP written in PHP for PHP. Any templating language that uses PHP code to write PHP code is a template that writes a template. It's really an added layer of expense and learning. The "compiling" of the templates is superficial. Yes, it's there but it's really not measurable to any significant degree.

The old style themes that used header.html or footer.html are just as useful in my opinion. The designer can write up an xhtml "template" with html, css, js and variables just like before, but with css and not tables, etc. Then, the programmer sets the real variable just like normal and then includes the xhtml "template". PHP will naturally replace the variables. Multiple rows are returned in an array. Smarty functions can just as well be PHP functions because that's what they are! And so it goes.

My point is, and I'll keep it narrow and restrained, RavenNuke(tm) does not need a templating engine, or should I say another templating engine, sitting on top of it interpreting what it already can do via pure PHP.

Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 4:06 pm

I didn't intend on making the browser wars a big issue, but actually it is. I am a IE user (slimbrowser) but I have all the major browsers installed to make sure that everything I design will fly on all of them.

I'll tell 'ya what I would like to see in a new theme system. Do away with any theme that is a remnant of PHP Nuke. Create a new RavenNuke(TM) website where users can go to download themes and other theme related items, for free. Then let the people who design themes start building and uploading their designs. phpBB does it and so do alot of other CMS's. I think that the powers that be could say here is the direction we're heading and specifically state what has to be in a theme to be an official RN product.

Whether it's tableless, css dependent, etc... just set the criteria and lets just jump on it and do it. We will all talk until we're blue in the face and it will take forever to implement something new.

RavenNuke (TM), in my opinion, should drift away from the standard Nuke look and feel in every regard.

Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 5:05 pm

I honestly believe the best way is to simply strip out the old theme variables from all modules then have everything themed from the styles .css file. We can do a wiki page describing what each css class does so it's pretty straight forward for all users.

Pure tableless css designs.

Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 5:21 pm

Another idea is to have the css file editable from admin.

Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 8:06 pm

The one thing I like about Nuke is its flexibility. You aren't locked into one templating system. It isn't the easiest if you don't know code, but it isn't too abstract where you cannot follow where "X,Y,Z" is being generated.

If you force people to dump their phpNuke themes for a new system, I'm sure you'll get some backlash. Wink

(I'm not against a new system at all, I'm just saying what you're probably going to hear anyway in the future)

Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 11:08 pm

Yes to all of the above. Whenever we tackle this, our approach will be to use CSS for all styling. That would mean that tables can be used anywhere needed but will be styled in CSS. I'm not saying that tables will be used for themes. The table tag is valid coding just as is any other html tag. But as I said above, it should be used properly just as all tags should.