Death Penalty Whiner: Amnesty International!

Site Admin/Owner Joined: Aug 27, 2002 Posts: 17088

I believe in the death penalty and believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that it would be a deterrent to crime here in the USA if it were allowed to be carried out in a fast and efficient manner. Saudi Arabia is definitely on the right track when it comes to fast and efficient!

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Convicted killer beheaded, put on display in Saudi Arabia

Story Highlights

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Saudi Arabian officials beheaded and then publicly displayed the body of a convicted killer in Riyadh on Friday, an act that prompted a stiff denunciation by a leading human rights monitor.

The Saudi Interior Ministry said Ahmed Al-Shamlani Al-Anzi was sentenced to death and then "crucifixion" -- having his body displayed in public -- for the kidnapping and killing of an 11-year-old boy and for the killing of the boy's father, according to the official Saudi Press Agency.

Amnesty International issued a statement deploring the punishment, with the group's Hassiba Hadj Sahraoui saying in a statement it is "horrific" that beheadings and crucifixions "still happen."

Even though the word "crucifixion" is used to describe the public display, the act has no connection to Christianity and the crucifixion of Jesus. The bodies are not displayed on crosses, Lamri Chirouf, who researches Saudi Arabian issues for Amnesty, explained.

The Saudi Interior Ministry asserted that Al-Anzi's body was displayed as a warning that those involved in similar crimes would suffer the same fate, the press agency reported.

The ministry said Al-Anzi kidnapped the boy and held him for a "malicious purpose" at a grocery store where he worked. He tied rope around the boy's neck and strangled him to death, the ministry said.

When the boy's father came to the store looking for his son, Al-Anzi axed the father repeatedly until the man died. When police came to arrest Al-Anzi, Al-Anzi resisted arrest by threatening them with a knife.

Police later discovered that Al-Anzi had been previously convicted of other crimes, including possession of pornographic videos and sodomy, the Interior Ministry said.

Chirouf, the Saudi Arabian researcher for Amnesty International, said his understanding of how the Saudi government carries out crucifixion jibed with Saudi Press Agency's account.

Government officials do use crucifixions, or public displays of executed bodies, as a tool to deter people from committing such a crime, he said.

This latest case was classified as an offense of rebellion, one that basically rejected all of the rules of religion and society, he said.

Chirouf said those crucified are beheaded first and then their heads are sewn back on their bodies. Then, the corpse is mounted on a pole or a tree.

The English-language Saudi Gazette newspaper said the body was placed on public display throughout the evening and Chirouf said it was his understanding that the body was to be displayed for a few hours.

In its denunciation of the punishment, Amnesty International deplored the "extensive use of the death penalty" in Saudi Arabia.

"King Abdullah should show true leadership and commute all death sentences if Saudi Arabia is to have any role to play as a global leader or member of the G-20," Sahraoui said.

The group asserts that "trial proceedings" in the country "fall far below international fair-trial standards."

"They usually take place behind closed doors without adequate legal representation. Convictions are often made on the basis of "confessions" obtained under duress, including torture or other ill-treatment during incommunicado detention," Amnesty International said.

"Those who are sentenced to death are often not informed of the progress of legal proceedings against them or of the date of execution until the morning when they are taken out and beheaded."

Amnesty International said there were 102 executions in Saudi Arabia in 2008 and is aware of 136 people believed to be awaiting execution. It says there has been "a high number of executions of migrant workers and other foreign nationals, in particular from Asia and Africa."

Al-Anzi was a Saudi national, said Chirouf -- who added "nobody knows how many people are on death row" in Saudi Arabia.

Involved Joined: Jul 03, 2006 Posts: 273

I think the death penalty could be good in the simple fact I think there are a few people that just plain deserve it. But I dunno about the deterrent factor? I mean it didn't deter Ahmed Al-Shamlani Al-Anzi or the other couple hundred people they said they have on death row?

Posted: Sun May 31, 2009 10:58 am

There will always be "some", of course. My point is that I mentioned in the USA. Compare the numbers on death row in USA and SA. And, compare the lengthys of time they sit there at our expense.

registered · Posted: Sun May 31, 2009 11:27 am

I always believed a killer should be killed the same way they killed their victim(s). Televised executions would be a simple way to display the consequences of murder. It could be the new MTV....

Posted: Sun May 31, 2009 1:49 pm

Raven wrote:

This latest case was classified as an offense of rebellion, one that basically rejected all of the rules of religion and society, he said.

For the points they make about it not being religious, that surely sounds like a religious matter.

My opinion is whether they consider it religious or not, it is. I say follow the word of God which in most religions, if I'm right, states that man shall not judge nor kill nor be condemned by man for his sins.

Surely he's wrong to kill, but they're also wrong, who are we to judge. Prison may not be the answer but surely the death penalty isn't either.

How about world trials and intermissions, the criminal faces the world televised and public, and is judged in a humane fashion, where he is questioned for months and makes several statements, until finally imprisoned where he will then undergo psychiatric treatment. "All for one, one for all"

Maybe we can't all think alike, but we all agree murder is wrong, including the man that was executed. That may sound contradicting, but in the end he surely understood why he was being killed.

Posted: Sun May 31, 2009 1:55 pm

But God also said "Gen 9:6 - Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed". The understood reconciliation of the apparent dichotomy is that man is not supposed to kill another man. But if he does then he is to be put to death. Man is not judging. God has already judged the man and the crime. The judgment and the penalty is God's; the enforcement is man's.

Posted: Sun May 31, 2009 3:43 pm

Raven wrote:

There will always be "some", of course. My point is that I mentioned in the USA. Compare the numbers on death row in USA and SA. And, compare the lengthys of time they sit there at our expense.

Of course the death penalty is great! that is until some one from your own family is wrongfully convicted and executed! then instead of "Whiners" an organization fighting for your rights such as "Amnesty International" would be more like your hero!!
It's amazing, all these people whom talk about Jesus, and how they know him and his teachings, yet, Jesus himself sat and drank with "tax collectors" whom at the time were known as murderers! so no matter what the bible says, perhaps one should go by the example of Jesus and the life he led Wink

Best,
jc

Posted: Sun May 31, 2009 6:38 pm

And where exactly have you learned of the "example of Jesus and the life he led"? From the very same Bible that explains when a man is to be put to death. You can't pick and choose which parts to believe or not. That's called situational ethics - See in Proverbs "Every man's way is right in his own eyes".

The Bible teaches:
2 Timothy 3:16: "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.".

2 Peter 1:20-21: "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.".

So, for a proper understanding and interpretation, one must accept all or nothing.

Posted: Sun May 31, 2009 7:50 pm

First, we must keep our characterizations correct...

Quote:

I say follow the word of God which in most religions, if I'm right, states that man shall not judge nor kill nor be condemned by man for his sins.

Tradgically, though your thought is popular, it is certainly a misconception of Biblical Christianity. The Bible doesn't forbid us to judge. Paul warns that those who judge are often guilty of the same sins (Romans 2), and Matthew warns us to judge with the same judgement we judge ourselves (Matthew 7). James could be construde as forbidding judging, but I think the emphasis is rather on our forgiving. But all of these are related to personal relational issues.

In the case of crimes like murder, Raven is correct. Genesis commands human government (not indivduals) to take the life of those who murder. This is a judgement of God on murders because in killing they attack the image of God in man, and by implication are attacking God. The penalty is further borne out in the Law, where even unintentional manslaughter was punishable by death. Yet this "lesser" killing had the provision that the killer could flee to a city of refuge and therein live out their lives.

Personally, I think public execution (and by this I mean in the public square not bringing a few witnesses into a private execution) would be a deterrant. However, man will only wax worse and worse until Christ comes. So, I'm not sure how effective it will continue to be.

Likewise, because man is sinful, our judicial systems are fallible. They do at times falsely condemn law abiding people and falsely exhonerate criminals. However, is the solution really doing away with the penalty? Or would it be better to revamp the way jurisprudence is carried out?

But the bottom line is that God established the penalty for the crime, and it was established before there was "His people" so it is a universal decree to all human government. He and His laws are just. We disobey Him by changing it to the peril of our society (this you can see in our daily papers).

Posted: Sun May 31, 2009 8:07 pm

I believe the one picking and choosing is some one else, Jesus read the same bible and with far better interpretation and with far better understanding then anyone that came before or after him, he was after all a Jew, whom spoke and read Hebrew of his time, not 2000+ years later as an American. And after he read this very same bible you like to quote, he preached, ate, cleaned the feet of murderers "tax collectors" and accepted oil and perfume to his feet from a prostitute. So before you accept all or nothing, you must understand Jesus was only about love and forgiving. Also are you willing to accept all or nothing, from human judgment? as imperfect as it may be? are you willing to do this if it was your children life at stake? no surprise from such a barbaric and backwards country as Saudi Arabia, a country where not even your wife can drive an automobile, let alone vote! but perhaps you would like to live there? or maybe China is much better? after all they love capital punishment there.

Thanks for the topic, I love this stuff!
jc

Posted: Sun May 31, 2009 11:10 pm

Jesus did not read the same Bible as the Bible was not assembled until well after He rose from the grave and ascended back to heaven to sit at the right hand of God, His Father. He was, of course, intimate with the Torah, the first 5 books of our present day Scriptures. But that is just a rabbit trail to the real issue here. There is no doubt that Jesus walked , talked, and visited with the people of His time on earth. He taught them and is our example of how to witness to people while not judging them, although He did plenty of judging while He was here on earth. Remember that He said He had not come to do away with the Law (of God) but to fulfill the Law (of God). Just because he sat and ate with sinners does not mean that he agreed or condoned their lifestyle. He also cleansed the temple of these very same folks. So, He did nothing to alter one jot nor tittle of the clear rules for human government. Jesus was so much more than "only about love and forgiving". Nowhere does it say that He sat and ate with people because He loved and forgave them. You are presenting a Jesus that is not Scriptural. To the contrary He said there is only one way to get forgiveness. And that's to accept His sacrifice on the cross for your sin.

John 14:6 - "Jesus saith unto him, I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

Heb 9:22 - "And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission."

All Jews and Gentiles, now and then, are condemned by the same one and only sin - rejecting God's free gift of Salvation:

John 3:16 - "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."

Romans 5:8 - "when we were in our sin Christ Jesus came to die for us."

Romans 3:23 - "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,"

Romans 6:23 - "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

2 Corinthians 5:21 - "He who knew no sin became sin for us, that we may be made the righteousness of God through Him."

Romans 10:9-10 - "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."

There is but one Jesus and one way to heaven and avoid hell. It is not by any works that we have done nor could ever do. We have to believe in God's sacrificial Lamb (Jesus) and His death, burial, and resurrection. Reading the New Testament in its entirety and comparing Scripture with Scripture is the only way to understand who Jesus is and why He did the things He did.

Although this is an elementary example, it's kind of like reading the PHP manual and only reading about what functions do. You walk away with a cursory understanding and you can easily make incorrect assumptions about their real purpose. You may know what they do but you will not understand why they do what they do, nor how they do what they do, nor how to use them in situations other than what your cursory observations showed you. In other words you must thoroughly study everything you can about functions to really know and understand functions Wink

Posted: Sun May 31, 2009 11:13 pm

nuken,

Totally agree!!

Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 12:04 am

Very cool post Raven, I mean he read and understood the Torah of course! not the bibile, he was a Jew and raised as a Jew, but I'm mostly speaking of the old Testament right? is this not what the bible is mostly based on? The new testament says nothing of what has been spoken as perceived as acceptance of capital punishment "Gen 9:6 ", and if you are and believe of him being the son of God, when the holy spirited came upon him, which i think it's today right? then he knows all, new, old, any thing ever written in history or otherwise.

Raven don't forget...

Quote:

How often should I forgive someone who sins against me?
Mathew 18:21 Then Peter came to him and asked, "Lord, how often should I forgive someone who sins against me? Seven times?" 22 "No!" Jesus replied, "seventy times seven!

Quote:

But if you refuse to forgive others, your Father will not forgive your sins.
Matthew 6:14 "If you forgive those who sin against you, your heavenly Father will forgive you. 15 But if you refuse to forgive others, your Father will not forgive your sins.16

Quote:

Matthew 5:43 "You have heard that the law of Moses says, ‘Love your neighbor’ and hate your enemy. 44 But I say, love your enemies! Pray for those who persecute you! 45 In that way, you will be acting as true children of your Father in heaven. For he gives his sunlight to both the evil and the good, and he sends rain on the just and on the unjust, too. 46 If you love only those who love you, what good is that? Even corrupt tax collectors do that much.

And to perhaps the one that makes it more obvious than many others that Jesus would never accept capital punishment:

Quote:

Matthew 5:38 "You have heard that the law of Moses says, ‘If an eye is injured, injure the eye of the person who did it. If a tooth gets knocked out, knock out the tooth of the person who did it.’ 39 But I say, don’t resist an evil person! If you are slapped on the right cheek, turn the other, too.

Raven I'm presenting a Jesus that was human not scriptural! after all it was his choice, to not only to be human but of the humblest of workers, a stone worker, and not carpenter as some think due to language barriers and translations. He also not only sat, and ate with sinners but he also died next two two criminals to his left and right!

The old testament is full of things that are no more, or perhaps all Christians don't eat pork? He expelled the merchants from the temple, did he do more?

Well think not only about reading a manual, but start by reading a translated manual which by the way may not be translated properly. Therefore the real purpose is not only assumed incorrect, but in fact it is many times. If one want's to live by the book, then I suggest for that person to learn Hebrew, from there learn the meaning of the words as they were 2000+ years ago, as words many times change meaning over time. I believe Jesus understood this, and perhaps he did not say rid of the old testament, but surely he wanted his believers to live by his life example, and that human example he gave is very clear, of "love and forgiveness" yes of course he is about more, but that is his main teaching besides to believe in him as a way to salvation.

Thanks again, very cool thread.

jc

Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 4:37 am

Quote:

I'm presenting a Jesus that was human not scriptural!

This is the crux of the debate. We are arguing that you must present a scriptural portait. All else is idolatry and falsehood. Jesus IS human (not past tense), and He is God (John 1, Hebrews 1). He walked among mankind offering forgiveness and the Kingdom of God. He died in our place - shed His blood for the expiation of our sins (Romans 4-5), and then He rose from the dead just as the Old Testament foretold. AND - He is coming again and brining with Him the perfect judgement of God (Revelation 4-20).

Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 4:57 am

Maybe I missed something here but I don't see what religion has to do with a man being beheaded and and then his body put on display.
OK so they may have chosen to use the word 'crucifixion' in a different context than that which most people associate it with but........
I agree that most judicial systems are simply not hard enough on criminals to be the deterrent they once were. I can only speak for the UK system where inmates have access to TV, Radio, internet, sports and recreational facilities, 3 square meals a day, no bills to pay, no debts to pay and no responsibilities.
Where else can you get a Masters Degree in Archeology for free or a Diploma in house breaking?

For 'lifers' they should have 12 months to prove their innocence and then they should be killed. Why should the tax payer keep them and pay for them?
If the Politically Correct brigade won't allow killing them off, then they should earn their keep - bring back the chain gangs and get them doing useful things like building homes for the homeless, reparing levi's etc etc.
Prison shouldn't be a free ride.

Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 6:54 am

Guardian2003 wrote:

For 'lifers' they should have 12 months to prove their innocence and then they should be killed. Why should the tax payer keep them and pay for them?
If the Politically Correct brigade won't allow killing them off, then they should earn their keep - bring back the chain gangs and get them doing useful things like building homes for the homeless, reparing levi's etc etc.
Prison shouldn't be a free ride.

I wouldn't be so drastic 1 year is a bit harsh , but the idea behind is good.

and nuken I agree with you.

I don't see where religion would intervene here.For me it's nothing else than payback to the society.

Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 7:43 am

If you cannot do the time, you shouldn't do the crime!
I also have very strong opinions of "punishment that befits the crime".
In the UK as an example, you can jump in a car, run someone down and kill them and get 15 to 25 years depending on what side of the bed the judge got up from and whether it was a younger or older person.
Who the hell decides if a 'young' life is worth more than an 'older' one just gets my riled up so we'll leave that one.

Now if you happened to be drunk and commit the same crime, you'll probably get somewhere between 5 and 10 years because of 'diminished responsibility'. What absolute CRAP!
They were not of 'deminished responsibility' when they headed for the bar in their car!

registered · Site Admin Joined: Jun 04, 2004 Posts: 6437

Quote:

Of course the death penalty is great! that is until some one from your own family is wrongfully convicted and executed! then instead of "Whiners" an organization fighting for your rights such as "Amnesty International" would be more like your hero!!

The flip side of this: Of course the death penalty is harsh! That is, until your daughter is raped and murdered (as was my father's cousin, whose killer ended the lives of several women, for which he paid less than 10 years in jail). Where was Amnesty or ACLU then? Who fights for the rights of the victims?

At the same time, mistakes are made and innocent people are convicted or at least accused with tragic results (remember the Duke lacrosse team? Or Tawanna Brawley?) That's the problem with having prejudiced judges like Sotomayor - no, she isn't a racist because Hispanic / Latino is an ethnic group, not a race - who pre-judge people based on their "life experience." What they should base their judgements on is the law, and not as it is legislated from other judge's benches, but as it is written by the legislative body.

My point is that there are mistakes on either side, but the current environment - at least in the US - is too heavily favored for the criminals and provides no incentives to follow the law.

Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 11:46 am

Excellent points here. Please remember I just wanted to give my thoughts, in no way do I believe my thoughts to be correct, they are just thoughts.

But, the point I tried to make is, while they may deny it being a religious issue, it is for all walks of life. For even the one who says he does not have a religion, or believe in a God, is also following the ways of a religion.

I know I don't speak clearly half the time, apologies to all. I just don't see it right to "kill" whether the person was judged by man or God. Even if we were to continue out the executions, not as if they are stopping anytime soon anyways, should we not also try to help the sinners learn from their wrong doing?

They are after all under a pre-determined judgement, is there not more we can "enforce" before their final hour?

Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 5:35 pm

Guardian2003 wrote:

then they should earn their keep - bring back the chain gangs and get them doing useful things like building homes for the homeless, reparing levi's etc etc.
Prison shouldn't be a free ride.

Guardian, I could not agree more! and it could be done in a correct and humane way! but in a way that they would be benefiting society and not costing the tax payers as they do today. Here in California, if anyone might not know the single most powerful union in the state of any industry is the union for prison guards. They are very powerful and in fact a first year prison guard makes more then a first year cop Confused

talk about things being screwed up! but housing prisoners has become a commodity and a $ $ $ making industry! everything has some level of corruption but because of this the corruption has increased. So it is much easier for these industries to receive their money from tax payers verses having prisoners earn their keep! so I'm afraid the systemic money draining prison system will not be changing any time soon in the US.
While I'm completely against capital punishment! and yes if some one killed my children or family members, believe me I would probably want to do the very same thing to them! but good thing we are a country of laws!! I'm for sure in making prisoners pay for their crime and pay for their stay!

Regards,
jc

registered · Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 7:10 am

Unfortunately I don't have time right this second to look up the verses, but what about when Christ comes back to set up His Millennial reign? Just what do you think the following means: "He will rule with a rod of iron". This is the same Jesus of which you speak of jc.

Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 8:05 am

offtopic:
Guardian2003, In south African countries they do consider older people as more worthwhile than younger. Just a stupid fact , but I tend to agree at some point.

btw , I'm not a huge fan of DP being a french citizen and never will. I tend to agree with the principle of my country in which it was abolished in 1970 ( decapitation really freaks me out)

Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 8:19 am

eldorado wrote:

btw , I'm not a huge fan of DP ... decapitation really freaks me out

Exactly my point Wink

Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 11:38 am

montego wrote:

Unfortunately I don't have time right this second to look up the verses, but what about when Christ comes back to set up His Millennial reign? Just what do you think the following means: "He will rule with a rod of iron". This is the same Jesus of which you speak of jc.

Yes, but if you believe in this! his judgment will be 100% true, correct, and just. Do you honestly believe man CAN or SHOULD apply the same "rule with a rod of iron". Again all of you whom are advocates of the DP, continue to be advocates until of course a family member is wrongfully accused. It's like Dick! do you think this man would ever believe in gay marriage if he did not have a gay daughter...different subject but just trying to make a point. Until it happens to you right? but same thing could be said if some one killed one of my family members right? sticky subject, never an easy answer Exclamation

BUT if montego you can tell me one day man can apply the law and punishment as efficiently and perfect as Jesus, then I tell ya I'm with you! I think Confused

I still would have a hard time with it! don't see why they can not rot in jail! it's too easy when you pull the plug on them! I have heard studies show capital punishment does not reduce this type of crime? true not true, anyone know?

jc

Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 12:26 pm

Quote:

Do you honestly believe man CAN or SHOULD apply the same "rule with a rod of iron".

Absolutely! Why? God said it and that settles it. No discriminating. Period. EOL.

Quote:

Again all of you whom are advocates of the DP, continue to be advocates until of course a family member is wrongfully accused

"all of you whom are advocates of the DP" would include me. Since this hasn't happened, you cannot predict the future and you certainly cannot base your [mis]assumptions based on that which has not happened. Of course I would be in a crazy state if that happened and I would do everything I could to prove innocence. But, that's not an issue concerning God's clear instructions on the Death Penalty. That's an issue with our investigators, witnesses, etc. - not the penalty system. A similar example is defending our country and the free world when called upon to do so. I have had relatives and friends that were killed in different wars but that doesn't change my belief in fighting for freedom.