Messianic Judaism

Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2004 3:20 pm

Hello all,

First time poster here. I've been reading through some of the posts here, and I thought I would share my religion with you.

I am a Messianic Jew, which basically means that I am a Christian who has accepted Judaism as part of G-d's will for me. He has given us His laws and His son, and both are to be followed.

Up until only a year ago, I followed the doctrine that the Old Testament laws had been 'nailed to the cross', but through a dear friend of mine learned that these laws had been abolished not by Christ, but by the church many years after His death. As He Himself said: "I did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it."

Anyway, I would be glad to discuss this with all of you. Smile

Site Admin/Owner Joined: Aug 27, 2002 Posts: 17088

All of the Jewish law was fulfilled, in Christ. So, to accept Christ as your Savior means that there is no law to fulfill - Christ's finished work on the cross was God's perfect and only sacrifice.

Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2004 3:33 pm

I don't understand that. To say that Christ, by fulfilling the law, means that there is no more law to fulfill, seems contradictory. Yeshua never said that after He died that the law would no longer apply. In fact, He said Himself that not a tittle or nod of the law would change until the end of heaven and earth.

I don't mean to start an argument, truly; I merely want to share my faith with you as you've shared yours with me.

Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2004 3:46 pm

Of course! By the law will no man be saved. Rather than I start a discourse, I will let this be the start of the discourse. I will be most interested in your reply. http://www.bible.ca/g-faith-only.htm

Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2004 3:58 pm

"Here is a great point to remember: Never in any age or dispensation in human history has God saved man by faith alone. God has always required faith and obedience."

This sentiment seems to be exactly my point. I believe that Yeshua died for our sins so that we could enter the kingdom of heaven, and that G-d expects obedience to His laws. G-d does not change, His laws have not changed.

I am not saying that works alone will save man. However, obedience to the Torah and the laws of the Old Testament are a part of being obedient to G-d's word.

G-d does not change, why would His expectations of us have?

Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2004 4:06 pm

Obedience is for a testimony to those without God's camp, that they might see God through us. Baptism, as an example. It does not save and never has. If works could save then we would not need a Saviour. It is only through the sacrifice of a perfect lamb, God's Son, that redemption is possible. Otherwise we continue to offer imperfect sacrifices for an imperfect man.

That passage simply laid out the discourse as I said. The obedience does not save, nor does it keep one saved. Obedience should be the natural consequence of salvation, not the means.

Now read this and especially note the last line http://www.bible.ca/g-faith-works.htm . It is obedience to God's plan, accepting Christ as your Saviour, that saves. Not man's work/obedience afterwards.

Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2004 6:22 pm

Agreed.

"It is obedient faith that saves."

As I have said, works do not save alone. You must have faith in Yeshua and his sacrifice on the cross for you to be truly saved.

However, G-d has given us His commandments, and they are to be followed for us to be obedient to His will. Hence, if you truly have faith, then you will act in accordance with His will. G-d has prescribed a lifestyle for us to follow, with actions and diet according what He wants for and from us. His son's death is another part of that plan.

Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2004 6:52 pm

We will have to agree to disagree Smile

- Salvation is by Faith + nothing. Dietary laws have nothing to do with Salvation, neither do the 10 Commandments. Dietary laws are health related, the 10 commandments are moral and obendience related. Jesus said "I am The Way, The Truth, The Life. No man cometh unto the Father, But By Me". If anything else was needed, then he would have added "and by the Law and by this, and that". He didn't. You are welcome to have the last word Wink

I would like to ask you to PM me your address though. One of the greatest Christian Jews I have ever known was Dr. Hyman Appleman (Hyman Jedidiah Appleman, 1902-1983). He was a dear man that I had the honor to know and spend but a short time with during a revival service in the 1970's. He also ate with us in our home. I have a tape where he recounts his conversion to Christianity. I think you would especially find it endearing and would like to send it to you, if you would allow me to.

Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2004 6:55 pm

I guess I'm not making myself clear. Smile

Faith in Yeshua is what leads to salvation. Man could never be saved by works, because we are sinful.

We follow the laws that G-d set forth for us because that is what He wanted us to do. That is all.

I will PM you my address.

Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2004 7:22 pm

Quote:

We follow the laws that G-d set forth for us because that is what He wanted us to do. That is all.

Regular Joined: Jan 27, 2004 Posts: 65

Works is the evidence of faith, not the prerequisite of it... we R saved by faith through grace... NOT by faith + anything else. The Bible makes it very clear that man is NOT saved by his works as they R of dirty rags. God does not save us based on our ability 2 adhere 2 the law, but rather by faith in Jesus. He is the only way.

The Law was created so that we may know that we R sinners. The Law cannot save U, it can only point U 2 the 1 who does... that is Jesus, who frees us from our sins.

:: edited ::

You might do well to also do a search on 'Jews 4 Jesus'. They R a Christian organization that specifically tries 2 reach out Jews. While I'm not assuming that U R a Jew, I am saying however that they or their WebSite (I'm sure they have 1) could prob answer many of your Q's about how the entire Old Testament points to Jesus, and how Jesus saves us from the Law which condemns man 2 his own sins... the simple answer, the Law was created 2 show us we need Him.

Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2004 11:14 pm

Amen, and again we say - AMEN. God said it and that settles it!

Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2004 11:24 pm

I felt bad not doing such a simple thing as searching the link myself, here it is...
http://www.jewsforjesus.org/

Check 'em out, & let us know your thoughts.

> TheShniz

Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2004 10:31 am

I can't help but feel like you guys are not reading what I am saying. The word 'Jew' popped up, so now you are making assumptions and not really reading what I am posting. Either that, or I am terrible at explaining my faith, and need to stop before I get myself or others confused.

I do believe that we are saved by grace alone. I believe that we are saved by faith in Yeshua alone. (Maybe that's the problem: Yeshua = Jesus Hebrew name.)

However, G-d's expectation that we continue to adhere to the laws of the Old Testament has not changed. He expects us to follow His commandments and laws. G-d does not change, so why would His expectations of us do so?

You're telling me that since Yeshua died for our sins, God's only requirement is faith in Yeshua. However, I think that even you would concede that one would not be truly saved unless he also changed the way he lived. You cannot accept Yeshua as the Son of G-d and yet continue to steal and fornicate. You do have to change your life. As Yeshua Himself said, there will be many who cry out his name who will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Becoming a Christian or a Jew requires a change in lifestyle as well, not just a simple change in belief.

All I am saying is that part of G-d's expectations of us is to follow His laws, old and new. I feel like the Church of today is wrongly pulling away from that without any real evidence that that was G-d's plan.

I will read the website you have posted, but I would also ask that you read some of the things I am going to link here:

Only registered users can see links on this board! Get registered or login!

Only registered users can see links on this board! Get registered or login! Feel free to read these all, but I think that the April/May lesson is the most pertinent to this conversation. Also, check out the quoted verse in the beginning of the June lesson.

Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2004 10:58 am

I will speak for me in this response. I have read every word you have written. You keep saying it is grace alone. Actually it is "saved by Grace, through FAITH, and that not of yourselves. It is the Gift of God, not by works, lest any man should boast", semantics maybe Smile

. Faith alone means just that. Yes, one would expect there to be an outward change of a changed inward heart. But nowhere in the New Testament will you find Jesus or any of His Apostles stating "now keep the 10 commandments and the dietary laws". That's because you would be adding to Faith, at that point. Plus, we would be trying to out-do each other to be 'better'. What about the thief on the cross that was saved while on the cross? What about death-bed conversions? Where was their "proof" of a changed life? That is why you cannot add to Faith. A saved person who sins needs to ask for forgiveness, in prayer, to restore Fellowship with God, but not his eternal standing with God. That was settled once and for all when he accepted Christ as his Savior.

Bottom line is this. Once you are saved, you are saved by the shed Blood of Christ. Repentance means a turning away from AND a turning towards something. In this case, God, and Christ by inference. But, as it is written, "the heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked. Who can know it?". Also, "Man looketh on the outward appearance, God looketh upon the heart". Again "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.". Only God knows the true state of any man's heart. We are not meant to be the judge, nor could we look on each other with a pure heart ourselves.

Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2004 11:05 am

Quote:

But nowhere in the New Testament will you find Jesus or any of His Apostles stating "now keep the 10 commandments and the dietary laws".

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Matt 5:17-19

I guess this is where we differ, because this is an example of a passage where I see Yeshua telling us that the law has not and will not change, and is to be followed.

Perhaps, as you said before, we will have to agree to disagree. Smile

BTW, I went to the Jews for Jesus site, but have a hard time finding what their message ultimately is. Do they proclaim that Yeshua's death and resurrection herald the end of the OT law? I didn't see anything that said that; they seemed to have a reverence for the Torah as far as I could tell. I admit that there seems to possibly be quite a bit that I would have to go through to get their whole message, but is there anything that states it clearly that I missed?

EDIT: BTW, for all my American brethren, happy 4th of July!

Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2004 11:40 am

Accepting your passage as why you have been stating what you have, do you notice that Jesus was commenting that both the least and the greatest were BOTH in Heaven? Even though they have not been outwardly obedient to the same degree, they are BOTH still in Heaven. Praise God! That's very important because it clearly states that they are still saved WITHOUT works.

"But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth His Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. Galatians 4:4,5."

"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Romans 8:3,4."

I believe Jesus was simply stating that He came to fulfill the law where man could not. He came as proof of the One that the law and the prophets had spoken of. He was stating that there is still more prophesy to be fulfilled (Second coming, anti-christ, Armageddon, etc.). I am not, in any way, implying that you or any person is not saved if you feel you need to live a particular way. Obviously, by living according to those things you will be healthier. But let me ask you, if your child fell into a revine on the Sabbath, would you get him out? Do you ever travel more than a mile (approx) on the Sabbath? My dear friend, there is no way that you can keep the Law, that's why we needed God's Perfect Sacrifice. We now need to go forth and tell the wonderful story of A Sinner Saved By Grace! We should have a changed life and "they (the world) should know us by our fruits".

Lastly, in closing, from the first epistle of John we read

Quote:

6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

See, God knows we will sin after we're saved. It is an inevitable consequence of Adam and Eve. When a saved one sins, he breaks fellowship with God but can quickly restore it, by asking for forgiveness. Enjoy the walk of a believer without shackles. Serving God and obeying Christ out of a changed heart, not a prescribed list.

Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2004 11:48 am

I agree that Yeshua came to fulfill the law because we as men cannot. We are sinful, and that's why we needed G-d's Son to save us.

I suppose that we could go around and around and around with this until Yeshua returned to claim His throne on Earth, but what would it matter? We both believe that He is the Son of God and died for our sins. We are brothers in The Christ, and that is the ultimate truth.

Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2004 12:04 pm

BTW, Raven, it hasn't taken me long to like you. It's not often you find people who are willing to advertise their faith the way you have. I think it's wonderful, and really applaud you for it.

Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2004 12:04 pm

JediStryker wrote:

I agree that Yeshua came to fulfill the law because we as men cannot. We are sinful, and that's why we needed G-d's Son to save us.

I suppose that we could go around and around and around with this until Yeshua returned to claim His throne on Earth, but what would it matter? We both believe that He is the Son of God and died for our sins. We are brothers in The Christ, and that is the ultimate truth.

Amen!

Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2004 12:06 pm

JediStryker wrote:

BTW, Raven, it hasn't taken me long to like you. It's not often you find people who are willing to advertise their faith the way you have. I think it's wonderful, and really applaud you for it.

And I, you! I was just composing a similar message to you.

Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2004 6:10 pm

I'm sorry, I haven't been able 2 keep up during this busy day here... but I have a reference 4 U:

Galations 3:23-25
[23] But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
[24] Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
[25] But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

The NIV says it a lil differently, saying that we are no longer under supervision of the law

> TheShniz

registered · Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2004 3:33 pm

JediStryker wrote:

BTW, Raven, it hasn't taken me long to like you. It's not often you find people who are willing to advertise their faith the way you have. I think it's wonderful, and really applaud you for it.

Amen and Amen!

That was a joy to read.

New Member Joined: Oct 27, 2004 Posts: 18

Wow, great discourse. Hope you don't mind if I join in.
First off I would like to say that all of us that have any form of "christianity" have inherited lies from our forefathers. Not intentional, now maybe but definately intentional in the beginning. Please consider looking to the site Only registered users can see links on this board! Get registered or login! , go ahead and order his free video. Our site is Only registered users can see links on this board! Get registered or login! not as many articles there but we are working on it.
OK, I would like to bring some scriptures to the table for all to consider.

Quote:

The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
(1 Peter 3:21 KJV)

It seems baptism saves us?

Quote:

And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
(Matthew 10:22 KJV)

It seems that enduring to the end saves us?

Quote:

Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
(Matthew 19:23-25 KJV)

It seems obey the commandments and selling all your posessions saves us? The disciples seemed to think the things that were just discussed had something to do with salvation. ie. (Matthew 19:17-22)

Quote:

But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
(Matthew 24:13 KJV)

There it is again, enduring until the end?

Quote:

For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.
(Mark 8:35 KJV)

Loose your life for his sake and the gospel's sake to savet it?

Quote:

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be d***ed.
(Mark 16:16 KJV)

Now he says he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved?

Quote:

And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.
(Luke 7:50 KJV)

Now he says thy faith hath saved thee?

Quote:

Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
(Luke 8:12 KJV)

Now belief in what apears to me to be the word will save?

Quote:

Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
(Luke 13:23-24 KJV)

Now there is a strait gate that we must enter into. Note: "..many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able." Todays "christian" world does not seem to fit into the few that find it catergory. There are millions of self proclaimed "christians".

Quote:

And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.
(Luke 18:42 KJV)

Again we see faith saves us or at least this man?

Quote:

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
(John 3:17-18 KJV)

Belief in the name (?) of the only begotten Son of God saves?

Quote:

John 5: 25-39

Trying to save space here many more to go.
Yahshua (Jesus) is talking to the Jews who are persecuting him for healing on the Sabbath. At the time Yahshua (Jesus) was walking the earth there had already been "laws" added to the "ten commandments". you will see that he takes many opportunities to break these "man made laws" There was never a law given by Yahweh (God) to not do the many things that they said you should not do on the Sabbath. Read the Torah (old testament) to see what he really said. The Sabbath was made for man not man for the Sabbath. Basically, enjoy yourself, take a rest, I'm telling you to rest. What kind of grievous law is that?
He said some things in the above scripture reference that he said would save?

Quote:

Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
(John 10:7-10 KJV)

You must go through Yahshua (Jesus), he is the way the truth the life! The narrow gate, the door that if you enter in you shall be saved?

Quote:

And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
(John 12:47-48 KJV)

Do not reject him, his word! It will judge you!

Quote:

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
(Acts 2:21 KJV)

It would appear that by this scripture all we have to do is call on the name of the Lord?

Quote:

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
(Acts 2:38-42 KJV)

It seems we go back to recieving his word and be baptized?

Quote:

Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
(Acts 4:12 KJV)

There is a name by which we MUST be saved?

Quote:

Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved. And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
(Acts 11:14-17 KJV)

Here is Petras (Peter) again telling someone the words of eternal life. Notice: they recieved the gift of the Holy Ghost just as Peter and the others had?

Quote:

And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
(Acts 15:1 KJV)

Oh now we have a man made doctrine coming in. Have a look at this example of why we should be sticking to Yahweh's (God's) word.

Quote:

But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
(Acts 15:11 KJV)

Now we see grace saves? What is grace? I have heard some say "the unmerited favor of God" to that I say: true, true but what does that mean? It means, He is going to give you room to grow. If you are not ready then he won't tell you! If he tells you then you are ready and had better not ignore it. You must have a love for the truth.

Quote:

And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house. And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
(Acts 16:30-33 KJV)

Believe on the Lord Yahshua (Jesus) Messiah (Christ) - and they spake to him the Word - and was baptized he and all his?

Quote:

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
(Romans 5:8-10 KJV)

We shall be saved by his life?

Quote:

For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
(Romans 8:24 KJV)

We are saved by hope?

Quote:

Romans chapter 10

Confess with your mouth and you shall be saved?
Whoso shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved?

Quote:

If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
(Romans 11:14 KJV)

By emulation (do what he does or did) of Shaul (Paul) some may be saved?

Quote:

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
(Romans 11:26-27 KJV)

You've definately got your foot in the door if you are an Isrealite?

Quote:

For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
(1 Corinthians 1:21 KJV)

Preaching (I am sure the Word) will save those that believe?

Quote:

For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?
(1 Corinthians 7:16 KJV)

A man or woman can save their wife or husband?

Quote:

To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
(1 Corinthians 9:22 KJV)

It seams he can save some? How? Preaching of the word. What is "the Word"? Think about it, when ever anyone in the New Testament talks about "the Word" they can't be talking about the "New Testament"? And that from a child though hast known the Holy Scriptures ... They are referring to the "Old Testament".

Quote:

By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
(1 Corinthians 15:2 KJV)

Keep in memory what he preached? What did he preach? Better know lest ye believe in vain.

Quote:

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
(Ephesians 2:5 KJV)

Saved by grace?

Quote:

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
(Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV)

Saved by grace? Not of works? I will get back to this.

Quote:

Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
(1 Timothy 4:16 KJV)

Continue in doctrine for in so doing thou shalt be saved? and them that hear thee?

Quote:

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
(Titus 3:5 KJV)

Washing of regeneration (baptizm) renewing of the Holy Ghost. His mercy saved us?

Quote:

Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
(Hebrews 7:25 KJV)

Yahshua (Jesus) is making intercession for us if we come to Yahweh (God) by him we shall be saved?

Quote:

Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
(James 1:21 KJV)

The word is able to save your souls?

Quote:

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
(James 2:14 KJV)

What? Is he saying faith can not save? Read this whole chapter.

Quote:

There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?
(James 4:12 KJV)

A lawgiver who can save and destroy? What are the laws he gave?

Quote:

And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
(James 5:15 KJV)

A sick man prays with faith and it saves him? It causes his sins to be forgiven?

Quote:

Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
(James 5:20 KJV)

OK, you've got a sinner, you convert him, that means he's not a sinner anymore, you've shown him the error of his ways and he converted. That takes action on the sinners part (works if you will)?

Quote:

Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
(1 Peter 3:20-21 KJV)

Baptism doth also now save us?

Quote:

For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
(1 Peter 4:17-18 KJV)

Ouch, the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and sinner appear?

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I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
(Jude 1:5 KJV)

Even though he saved them from Egypt, he had to end up destroying those who believed not?

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And of some have compassion, making a difference: And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
(Jude 1:22-23 KJV)

Pull them out of the fire, save them?

And now I am coming to an end. Prayerfully consider all of the scriptures that have been brought before you. I do not hold to any ones creed! I do not attend "church" for we are the church. I have no agenda. I only ask you to consider his word. ALL of his word. We can not take a scripture here or there and leave out the rest. The scriptures I have put before you are only to demonstrate how man's doctrines have lied to us all. There are so many things that we have all been lied to about. If you will accept what Yahweh (God) is trying to tell his church today he will open the flood gates of revelation. You will see more things in the next few weeks than you have seen in your life time. These are the last days! We have only a short while remaining in which we can work (work while is it yet day for the night cometh when no man can work). In this last few minutes of this world as we know it he is opening the eyse that have been blinded by Mystery Babylon. He is showing truth to all. Don't reject it flatly without further study. I have said very little here. What you see mostly are his words. Let them speak to you and finally I say - Live the WORD!

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Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
(James 2:17-24 KJV)

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But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
(James 1:22 KJV)

Sorry for the length! I only said what I believe Yahweh (God) placed on my heart. If it's is too long then remove it. I am going to copy it and place it in a module to place on our Nuke site (whenever it is operational).
God bless all!

Gary