Debating intelligence (long)

Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 12:29 pm

This is funny ... honest ... well at least to us simple minded folks. I was in a gun legislation debate when someone threw in a comment that made everyone pretty much chuckle. I hadn't thought about it in a while until Muffin and I were talking about US territories and the British Empire and that reminded me of this. So here is the transcript for your enjoyment.

Debate Topic intro:
Robert C. Wadman, associate professor of criminal justice at Weber State University, wrote an opinion piece in the June 25 Standard-Examiner attacking the gun industry for pushing for the passage of Senate Bill 659 ("Gun industry concerned more by profits than safety"). The bill prohibits lawsuits which attempt to hold gun manufacturers liable for the actions of violent criminals who unlawfully misuse guns to injure others.
(the article is clipped to save space .. this is long enough as is)

My start
How very lawyer'ish. You could have said the same thing in 1/2 as many words, not attacked this person integrity and accomplished the same thing. This is not an attack on you. Honest. You did write a very compelling post; articulate and thought provoking. But I am going to start this post by saying I am going to attack the Law Industry in general, so nothing personal. Smile

The whole debate on who you can and can't sue all revolves around money. Where can I make the quick buck the fastest. Lawyers have become very good at this game.

There are already laws that let you sue manufacturers for defective products, why do we need more? There are already gun laws that put people in jail and/or are fined for distributing to people you are not suppose to. Lets try to enforce these laws before we make more. Oh but wait, there's not enough money to be made by doing that.

If you took all the gun debates and simplified it to who can and can't have gun. In the boarders of the United States, and military bases, only citizens without criminal records can own guns. Anyone caught selling, distributing, loaning, giving, or let uses a gun to a person with a criminal record is sent to jail without option of bail for XX amount of time. The only flaw to this is 1/2 the nation would be in jail. Smile

You can't ban guns outright, so only the criminals will have them. But if you took out the monetary value of the crime, then lawyers wouldn't be interested in the subject.

Makes you wonder ... Canada has such simple gun laws and they average 68 deaths per year ... the US has very complex gun laws and we average over 11,000 deaths per year. Is it because we are spending too much time and money debating on what should be done with guns, instead of teaching our youth how to properly own a gun ... or is it because we are a violent nation that is hell bent on 'Don't you tell me what to do .. but I'm sure going to tell you what to do!'. I vote for the second option because lawyers have made it as easy as possible to not take responsibility for your own actions.

The 'other' side
While I am not a big fan of lawyers either, your statistics could use a little better representation here.

The population of Canada, which is a tad bit larger in land mass than the U.S., is 32 million people. That averages out to around 3.3 people per sq km. The United States boasts a population of 285 million, averaging about 29.7 people per sq km. Keeping in mind that the population numbers don't take into account the illegals that are currently in country, it's obvious to see that you don't have quite the number of idiots to deal with in a Canadian neighborhood than in an American one. There are many other variables, that contribute to the crime statistics in a country, than just gun laws. Canada is a 3rd world country, and cannot compare to the U.S. when it comes to economic and industrial staus.

Aside from that, your post makes some valid points.

My Reply
Aw another point that statistics are only as good as what the person who throws them out there wants them to be (refer to cell phone debate to know what I mean.)

Your right there are fewer people in a larger land mass, but only 1/3 of their land mass is classified as inhabitable. And if you'd like we can narrow it down and compare Alaska to Quebec (Canada's most violent providence) if those number will make it easier to quantify your statistics.

Anyway, thanks for the laugh! My whole office appreciates it. Canada is a 3rd world country. Really? So what does that make Ethiopia or Nigeria? 6th world countries? That was so funny I forwarded it to the Prime Minster. I'm sure he'll find that interesting since the UN has voted Canada the best country to live in for the past 8 consecutive years because of their low crime rates, industrial power, and passive nature. As a matter of fact if we don't pull our heads out and resolve our economic situation the Canadian Dollar will be worth more then the US Dollar, again. They follow us exactly, but they let us fight the wars because we are a violent country.

That was great Smile

Please entertain me again Smile

The 'other' side's reply
Hmm. Must have hit a Canadian heritage nerve. And you said it yourself: "Aw another point that statistics are only as good as what the person who throws them out there wants them to be ".

>>UN has voted Canada the best country to live in for the past 8 consecutive years because of their low crime rates, industrial power, and passive nature.<<

Guess that's why they are being inundated by immigrants, swimming accross Lake Erie, to live in such a prosperous contry. Oh wait! That's only in times of the US draft. My bad.

Anyway, I'll remember your defense the next time I drive my Canadian engineered car, and count my money from the Canadian stock market, after researching the ticker codes on my cutting edge Canadian computer. But then again, I can always count on my Canadian technology to make my life easier.

You must be very proud knowing that the Canadian dollar bears your likeness on the front. Long live the loonie.

My Reply
You know ... you've very entertaining Smile

Hmm. Make comments that question you statement that Canada is a 3rd world country and you assume I'm Canadian. Well that's a strong argument full of unbeatable logic. To set the record straight I'm American Indian native to this area for many generations. If a person's comments is evidence of their heritage should we start guessing where you're heritage derives from? My notation doesn't come from a love of Canada, just an awareness of the world around me. Maybe you should crawl out of your box and take a look around. If you'd prefer should we compare gun laws and deaths to Germany. They are notoriously a violent country.

I bet you'll live you life surrounded by Japanese engineering. Oh but wait, would they be a 2nd world country because the have an economy, but no industry, right?!?

I bet you also think Al Gore invented the Internet? And the Easter bunny brings you colored eggs each year as it prances down Mulberry Lane.

I wish the Canadian dollar had my likeness on it .. that means I would rule over Canada,

Britain, Australia and New Zealand and a host of other countries scattered around the world from the Bahamas and Grenada to Papua New Guinea and Tuvalu. Talk about not having to worry about how much your next paycheck is or is my health insurance going to cover a medical procedure or not.

And that's Ms. Loonie to you!

The 'Other' Side Reply
Perhaps I should have expanded on that comment by stating it was an opinion. My mistake and I stand corrected on the traditional definition. Though my definition includes such factors as contributions to the free world (and not for the mere fact of a safe haven for draft dodgers), foreign aid (to other contries), technological advances (of their own), and economic growth.

Perhaps they don't even fall into a ranking, as 2nd world countries are communist, and 1st world are those that produce and contribute technological, agricultural, or commercial value to the rest of the world. None of which Canada can claim. Unless you count their hot wings. They're the best I've ever tasted.

My Reply
So what "world" class is Britain?

The way YOU define the "world" class, only the US is a first class world country.

FYI - The term “third world nation” refers to those nations that align with neither the communist block nor us in the west. Third world countries have no economic or military ties to either side and use both sides to their advantage as much as they can.

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No reply was given .. debate ended.

Involved Joined: Jul 15, 2004 Posts: 252 Location: OKC, OK

Reminds me of an artical I read in The New Yorker back in the 80's (humor) on the new Canada

The family sat down at a dinner table hewn out of oak and polished to hide its meager origen. The living room could bearly sit 12 and the swiming pool was outside and unheated, and the firewood? "Ran out in May?" said the man. May was three months past.

Thank god we are americans and not a part of this "The new Canada"

Client Joined: Apr 10, 2004 Posts: 649 Location: UK

Oh my lol

You know that guy is so full of hot air and opinionated it's a wonder he doesnt challenge the round the world in a hot air balloon record Shocked

Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 9:14 pm

As a very biased Canadian, and not a member of the fascist heritage party I will stand up for our right to be whatever we want to be and not be influenced by anyone. And for those who think Canada is a third world country... er, you're wrong.

Anyone with an ounce of knowledge about the world around them knows that Canada is a member of the G8, that group of countries that call themselves special because of their economic prowess.

It always amazes me to travel across the border and meet Americans who insist we Canadians all drive canoes and eat seal meat for breakfast, lunch and dinner. I've got to wonder where these people get off thinking they know what's good for the world.

Some Canadian stuff:
Space Robotics: The Remote Manipulator on both the space shuttle and space station are homegrown Canadian. Oh heck, there is lot's of space stuff. Canadians participate actively in a host of international space efforts.
phpmyadmin: from Vancouver
Joseph-Armand Bombardier's snowmobile, but Bombardier the company is a major player in all kinds of transportation innovations.
Basketball, invented by Canadian James Naismith in 1891, has evolved into one of the world's most popular sports.
Donald L. Hings created a walkie talkie for the Canadian forces in 1942. His portable two-way radios paved the way for military communications. Other technological advancements include Wilbur Frank's "G suit" - a pressure suit used by Allied fighter pilots regularly after 1942; James Hillier's electron microscope; Java, a computer language developed by Canadian James Gosling at Sun Microsystems; and IMAX, Graeme Ferguson, Roman Kroitor, William Shaw and Robert Kerr's large-screen film system. Banting and Best's discovery of insulin. Sir Sanford Fleming's Standard Time and even Pablum (developed at Sick Kid's Hospital in Toronto by Drs. Drake, Tisdall and Brown) are all Canadian contributions to the world.

If that hasn't convinced you we do more with our spare time than club the seals we eat for breakfast, lunch and dinner... check out this website. http://inventors.about.com/library/weekly/aa090100a.htm

There are also contributions to Art and Music. http://www.zeroland.co.nz/canada.html
And check out this Famous Canadians page.. http://www.canadians.ca/

As far as guns and violence go ... if you saw bowling for columbine then you get a pretty good idea about the lack of both in this country. Like the US, our laws involve registering guns to responsible gun owners.... unlike the US we have very few homocides each year. For more info on Canadian crime stats: http://www.gdsourcing.ca/works/faqcrime.htm But Quebec has one of the lowest crime rates of all 10 provinces and 3 territories.
"Among the provinces, Saskatchewan and Manitoba reported the highest violent crime rates, and Quebec and Prince Edward Island continued to report the lowest."

As far as homocides in 2001 in Canadian provinces, and the rate is decreasing ... "Manitoba had 34 homicides, resulting in the highest homicide rate (3.0 homicides per 100,000 population) for the second consecutive year, followed by Saskatchewan (2.7) and Alberta (2.3). Newfoundland and Labrador, with one homicide, had the lowest rate (0.2), followed by Nova Scotia (1.0) and New Brunswick (1.1)."

So that's somewhere between 1-3 homicides per 100,000 population. Anyone have that 100,000 stat for the US?

Canadians are generally a peaceful polite people. We not only tolerate diversity, we embrace it. IMHO, it is way more fun to call someone a funny name than it is to punch in them in the nose.

Site Admin/Owner Joined: Aug 27, 2002 Posts: 17088

Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 5:31 am

Quick to the bunker

Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 9:46 am

Cody dear .... I know and agree with everything you are saying. The post was not to say Canada was/is 3rd world, but about stupid some people can be and how funny their stupidity can be. The post also wasn't to start a debate about gun laws since Raven doesn't have a political forum here Smile

ALL countries have misnomers about other countries. Some of my German friends actually though most US people where real 'Red Necks' as described by Jeff Foxworthy.

A lot of people that I meet think that just because I'm blonde I'm dumb.

You just pat those kinds of people on the head ... walk away and think to yourself ... Geez What an Idiot! Don't take it personal, to many things in life to worry about then what people you don't know think. Very Happy

Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 11:31 am

There is now a political forum Smile

. I tried to set you up as a Moderator for the forum but phpbb puked (as usual) so I will still keep trying. Will probably have to jury-rig it. We'll see. I will also move this thread.

Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 11:37 am

Well I received an email saying Congrats your a Moderator and it looks like we are in a new forum guess your jury-rig workied Smile

Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 11:53 am

Nope. Disregard that.

Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 12:00 pm

Oh sure ... just change your mind :p

Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 12:15 pm

I'm sorry if it seemed like I was intending to paint all american people, culture, politics, with one Canadian brush. People are way more complex than "everything" and "always".

Now to find that politics forum... Wink

Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 12:31 pm

HauntedWebby wrote:

Oh sure ... just change your mind :p

Haven't changed MY mind. I have to convince phpbb that you really should be a Moderator ROTFL

Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 3:17 pm

Maybe it's trying to tell you something Raven.... Your board my not like HauntedWebby. I mean thats a pretty creepy avatar and it could be giving your board bad dreams or something.

Sorry just ate a bag of Skittles and I am on a suger rush:)

Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 3:28 pm

Hey now ... it was an avatar in Raven's collection!!!!

If you notice many of the boards don't have moderators .. so nanner, nanner it's not just me Razz

Mmmm Skittles. That sounds good.

Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 3:34 pm

Ok I changed my avatar to my own. Not so scary ... lol

Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 12:51 pm

HauntedWebby wrote:

Some of my German friends actually though most US people where real 'Red Necks' as described by Jeff Foxworthy.

Ok I may have to stand corrected on this one. I just came home from my Uncle Geno's funeral and it amazes me what people will wear.

Remember the joke 'You might be a redneck if you wear a tub top to a funeral'? Well I have 2 of them {shake head}

Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 1:37 pm

Did any of them use the word 'wichididga'?

Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 1:40 pm

I won't even go into some of the people I know, you know what they say about Oklahoma, red dirt white trash.

Dubble wide trailer on cinder blocks, about three pieces of dying sod to cover about an acre of dirt, 3 trucks also on cinder blocks and a satilite dish and big screen HD TV. Gotta put the important thing in life in perspective like football, football, and ahhhh....??? Oh Yea! FOOTBALL!!!!

No me I just want 3 things in life, To be respected by men, adored by women, and a comuter set up that would make HAL9000 look like a TI99.

Not much to ask for.

Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 1:43 pm

No but I heard a lot of 'u-umto' & 'manaze'.

This is scary/creepy and funny. At the funeral I saw the mom of my son's best friend. They have been friends for 6 or so years. He spends the night at our house ... my son spends the night at hist house. always together. But I was wonder what she was doing there ... she was wondering the same thing. Turns out that her mom, and my hubbies dad are brother and sister. So she's hubbies' first cousin. We did not know. We never really knoew her last name and she didn't know ours .. so we never connected the dots in 6 years ... lol

Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 1:47 pm

Tao_Man wrote:

I won't even go into some of the people I know, you know what they say about Oklahoma, red dirt white trash.

I have a lot of family in Oklahoma and we always tell them when we visit every time we cross the Okie state line our IQ points drop by 1/2.

But not everyone was stupid .... my dad was a born and raised Okie. When he went to college he went to an all girls college. Only 12 guys on the entire campus. He took journalism classes, not because he wanted to be a writer, but because of the overnight field trips. LOL

Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 2:01 pm

Of course not all Okies are stupid, I'm one. Very Happy

Born and bred as they say.

You visit around Tuilsa and Oklahoma City and you meet almost regular people for the most part but head out of town and look for Rod Sterling by the side of the road thats when you get to the real Oklahoma.

Oklahoma is not that bad, but lord it isn't that good either.

Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 2:04 pm

I've never been to Tulsa. I've been to OKC several time. But mostly I go to Chickasha or Ponca (sp?) City, depends on which side of the family reunions I'm going to Smile

Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 3:12 pm

Well iTulsa is in the "good" half of the state, which is the eastern part, and my home town, if you get the chance there are some good western art musiums in Tulsa.